|
Post by mactombs on Mar 2, 2005 17:08:35 GMT -5
It's strange I guess, but my most spiritual moment was when I left my parent's religion and lost god. There's something profound about self-reliance. For this reason, I don't agree much with the notions of angels and guides, or a personal god. That was a good ten years ago. Recently, I don't remember all the events that led me to this new spirituality I'm exploring (OBE-inspired). I guess curiousity is really what led me to OBEs and related spiritualities. At this point, I'm more likely to say there is a god of some sort than to say there isn't. That's a pretty big change for me. And my mind is a lot more open to spiritual possibilities. At the same time, I'm not sold. I'm willing to give more credence to the notion that OBEs are a physiological phenomenon, that the brain is a chemical computer, than I am to say OBEs are more than that. I don't think dreams are particularly "real", nor do I think they have any meaning beyond a glimpse at subconcious issues. Magic doesn't seem to have any use beyond a placebo, but I haven't studied that so much. I'll admit, OBE experiences that I've had (and my only encounter with vibrations) have far exceeded anything I could imagine. In fact, with the vibration experience I didn't want to even try to describe it because I felt that it would seriously take away from the unfathomable nature of the experience. I just haven't had enough experience with it to say there's anything supernatural there. I didn't take the quiz, but I'm probably a "spritual crank" ...
|
|
|
Post by blake on Mar 2, 2005 23:55:48 GMT -5
Mactombs, I can understand how leaving your parents religion could be a really spiritual experience. I think that there is some sort of outside influence on my life... something helping me and keeping things good... I say this because I just can't think that some things are just coincidences. I am also a very "lucky" person in many ways, and it just doesn't seem quite right to think it is all chance. I have not prayed much in a while, but I want to... I just don't know who to pray to. I don't think it makes sense to give thanks or anything to God or Jesus... I just kinda doubt that they know me personally even if they do exist. Lately I have been praying to and giving thanks to my spirit guides, because "spirit guide" is really unspecific and could include any sort of influence.
Another thing that kinda makes me think that there is an outside influence is the fact that I am not dead, in fact I am not even really injured or anything and I have been reckless in my life. I have been in dangerous situations that were SOOO close. I have been in situations like that more than once and I am ok. I try not to push my luck any more these days.
Sometimes my mom likes for us to go to church on christmas eve. I now refuse to recite any lines or songs whatsoever, but I was never really into it anyway.
I can understand your skepticism, since you haven't had that much experience, but it sounds like you will be slowly proving to yourself that there is something there, since you already have felt intense vib's and stuff. I have on occasion wondered if it could all just be some weird, involved, ELABORATE psychic ability, but it is simply not the most likely explanation. And to think that it could be anything but actually leaving your body just doesn't fit with the overall feelings etc of experiences, and it makes proofs much less explained. It sounds like proof experiments are going to be important to you as you project more and more. I think proof experiments take a fair amount of skill, but I'm sure you can get there. Some day I will be so good that I will know the truths with absolute certainty. I hope you will join me in reaching that level:)
|
|
|
Post by nani on Mar 3, 2005 12:54:41 GMT -5
Hey hello guys, Im back and maybe have to go again for an escort-travel, but anyways at least good to be near a computer again, great to read all your experiences. I would like to do some short replies and then try to put mine.
Ronni for me this is an amazing story, cause it reminds me (again Lori) to the studies of Michael Dull Newton, an american Hypnotherapist, who`s clients describe (in their Life between Life sessions) the “halls of learning” where we (assumed) go and be before we plan our next incarnation. Have you heard of him? Lori, did you find out why this happened the first time in a National Park? This would be interesting. Are there animals? Sandy, hahahaha, can we please get married, then I would have a “laugh till/to death” assurance lol. Sleepwalker, this must have been a first horrifying, but then very impressing experience, I can imagine this lasts forever, what a mercy.. Linda I agree what was said, this could have been your guide. But whoever it was- what a wonderful thing to have such a guidance, this is amazing, to know that we are not alone when we urgently need help. I mean with the prehistory about the difficulties with your first child you would have been worrying a lot and this alone would have influenced a good and healthy growth- so the worries were taken away by this divine helper and you and the child could feel and grow save- how wonderful. Mactombs, I like your honest and straight kind to express your opinion and I think that you (with all scepticism and assuming physiological reasons behind those experiences) are very important in this kind of forums – cause who knows the final truth, who? Blake, amazing, Im jealous, making music in obes wow (and Ronni and Lori do or hear it too) Okay when I do my earth-music Im blown up too, Im getting like drunk so high, but still this seems to be something more very very special. I only once had a clear-dream, I was going to paint (I cant in real) and while I touched the picture with the paint brush lightly it would give each time a sound, a sound so wonderful that I hardly could stand it, I had to make breaks full of enrapture in between cause the arising sound was flushing me so intensely. Gav, no doubt, this was a “Satori”!!! Sure for sure. A short enlightenment, induced through a train of thoughts similar to the zen-koans, which lead from an irrational, but the mind occupying, thought to a recognition and perception of truth. You made your own zen-koan, that’s fascinating man. I guess if you could have let go of any further thoughts about to keep (and give) the “answer” you could have laughed and stayed in this truth for a longer time.., maybe something to think about, or maybe not. I have to quote this one from you Gav, cause this an inventive research, so great and truly describing a real scientific head. From Gav:“as I could not find a good biological explanation for laughing, or a good one to dismiss it as a quotient to the meaning of life, after all laughter was a good thing right?”<br>Yeeeeeees hahahahhah love it.
My experience of awe: Around 18 I was travelling with 5 friends to a Yugoslavian Island Ios with a small VW-bus. We did wild-camping, smoking dope, philosophising about the world and god. We all were on a spiritual path, doing meditation, arts, reading Tao Te King of Laotse – but maybe all this was more happening in our heads, in truth we were young, acting and feeling quite different to our ideals. We were in a kind of discontent mood, disputing a lot with each other, very different to what we had imagined to do in this holidays, as we were hippies who just wanted to be and feel love. One day odd things started to happen: a huge yellow caterpillar was crawling up a friend during a rest while we were on our way, we thought: oh this is a sign. Then a black bird flew straight into our windscreen, we thought: oh that is a sign, we new it was no good sign. But we went on arguing bull over bull while driving. Then we took a hitchhiker on our bus and some meters later it happened. A man in a car came around the corner and crashed in our bus, with peer open eyes, he has had an heart attack. I was sitting on the left behind the driver banging the window, then the car slowly was moving to the right, where only depth, descent was. Then we were out of time, out of any time, out of any sound, out of any space.. the car was rolling upside down slowly downwards, all the boxes, tools and us 7 people were like in a dice cup of god, I heard him play dice, heard sounds like short after the vibrations before Obe, but didn’t feel anything, insensate, neutral, but fully conscious in the other world of nothingness. After three rounds the car stopped on the roof. I saw nobody because of the tons of clothes but I heard me shouting: “we are alive!” Crawling out somehow we 6 were dancing then under shock full of blood, while the driver still couldn’t move, cause his leg was terribly injured. The weather suddenly changed tremendous from blue sky to a real black sky and I saw the book Tao Te King lying fluttering but opened at a specific page on the bus, I hobbled there and could read an absolutely fitting expression of what happened and why it happened. Then we got aware of the situation, we down the hill, no human near, the man up there. Time still was lost, but anytime few people passed, went to get ambulance, helped us up and then we saw the man with his organs besides him but still alive. Okay I think I have to make it much shorter now. Me, the driver and the man, the worst injured ones were carried by a lorry and needed hours to get to a bad hospital - the man died there, the drivers leg was treated wrong, I got louse there and beside me a foreign woman was dying, no nurse would come, I just hold her hand and accompanied her as best as I could. Our injuries and pain needed years to heal, two friends got a guilt complex through this and now still join crazy religious sects. Life changed a lot from that day on, we all went different ways at least for some years, emotionally hard years were awaiting me, I had to learn a lot about to cherish life with its gifts. That was my spiritual lesson of awe. Thank you for sharing. Best regards nani
|
|
|
Post by mactombs on Mar 3, 2005 13:15:59 GMT -5
I think everyone reaches that level ... the thing is, I don't want to be floating over my body in a morgue when I do reach that point. I want to know now, dammit! Or at least explore! I don't see why my higher self/guide/whatever takes so long to be helpful in getting me out if they are real. There's an answer, I'm sure, but it'll sound too much like a lecture in a Star Wars movie. Maybe I need to be more self-reliant ... that's my preference, it just isn't fast enough. On the other hand, I think I had a nearly-OBE experience just this morning. It's like the "hagging" so familiar. Someone in my bedroom when I woke up that shouldn't have been there, me being creeped out for about half a second before I fell right back to sleep. So tired... Anyway, these are neat experiences in this thread. Most people seem to lead much more interesting lives than I do!
|
|
|
Post by ~¤LilacSky¤~ on Mar 3, 2005 13:26:18 GMT -5
Hi Nani good to hear from you again! actually I have not heard of him, but I have heard of the inbetween worlds place where we go to study our lives and perhaps go over our lessons, maybe I was seeing the truth when I saw my dad sitting in a classroom, he did not live a good life very short and sad one, so maybe I did see him preparing for the next one, Is is quite possible, and thanks I too believe it to be an amazing story, yours was as well Nani, wow I couldn't imagine going through something like that, You are very lucky to be alive,and honestly I am thankful that I never had to expereince something that profound, I don't like to see such things let alone be involved in it , but it was a very touching story Nani thanks for shareing it with us.
Ronni
|
|
|
Post by blake on Mar 4, 2005 3:21:00 GMT -5
hahaha, yeah
|
|
|
Post by Gav on Mar 4, 2005 8:13:52 GMT -5
I have had similar experiences. When I was younger I went through the whole drug-dance culture stage. (Disclaimer) (I would not suggest to anyone to take chemical-synthetic (so-called designer) drugs, but the experiences that such indulgences induce cannot be ignored if we are serious about studying consciousness and its altered states. 'Natural' drugs have been used in various occult and spiritual practices throughout history including oneromancy and the shamanic acts of gaining allies, which both generally involve the induction of a full sensory hallucination - it would be bad method to ignore the similarities between these experiences and astral projection. Unless you are very sure of what you are doing, you are almost invariably better off exploring other peoples drug induced experiences than experimenting yourself. The use of controlled substances and in particular hallucinogens can and often will lead to mental illness and under prolonged exposure, psychosis. I do not wish for anyone to think I am suggesting it is a good idea for them to experiment in this field.) I have noted on many occasions in my past that music seems to appear to me naturally whilst in a drug induced altered state. I would often hear music very clearly in my head, that I had never heard before whilst under the effects of MDMA or LSD. This music certainly seemed to be completely original and no effort was required to create it - it just presented itself to me naturally. It is interesting to consider how recreational drugs work; they change the chemical composition of the brain and in doing so affect neurotransmission, so that certain signals are either greatly enhanced or subdued. This change in the neuro-chemistry of the brain through the blocking or enhancing of signals can make certain paths of thought shut down - whilst strengthening others - so in effect re-designing the function of the brain. The effects can be very similar to those induced by meditation or sleep, in my dualist view I see it that with meditation we actively seek to alter our brain state - or quieten down the signals of the mind - and often focus on others. We chose to do this and with practice we can force the brain to change its state to support our requirements. So drug induced altered states would really be the reverse in that a chemical that is entered into our biological system, has forced a change in brain state and the mind has had to follow suit. Meditation - The mind forces the brain to change state in accordance with its wishes. Drugs - The mind is forced to change state as the drug has forced the brain to alter its thought paths Interestingly both experiences can yield the same outcome - the presentation of creativity - sometimes music and other times knowledge that seemingly arrives from nowhere. I would suggest that a couple of possibilities exist, we could step out on a Jungian limb and suggest that some change in thought has allowed us to tap in to a unified-unconscious, or if we are not keen on Jungian philosophy we could of course consider it a form of ESP, which is technically the same explanation but perhaps more scientific and material. As a second possibility we may find that the creative current is something that is integral to us, and that the change in brain state allows us to experience it in its raw form, rather than adulterated by the systems of the brain as they have either been forced or subdued into inactivity. Both possible explanations (and these may not be the only ones) have a very common theme though. The shutting down of certain mental thought processes and sometimes the heightening of others. It seems that by subduing the thought within the brain, either naturally or chemically that we gain access to information that does not initially seem to have been created by us; not by our brain anyway. So many artists explain their work as 'simply coming to them' perhaps these artists are naturally adept at achieving some form of altered state and maybe even work in this state without realising. I would also consider that often things that we contemplate in this state become harder to access when we return from them. Thought that seemed to be - or in fact was logical, whilst considered with an altered method of thought will become irrational or even incomprehensible when we consider them under the application of a fully conscious comprehension. Blake I would be interested to stick some electrodes on your head and see if you where in a different state of brain activity when you compose these tunes to what you are when you are not. You have to wear them for a long time though and document everything you do so that we could allow for as many possibilities as possible. We could attach a desk on wheels to your waist that could provide you with all the writing materials you need and an EEG machine everywhere you go. You would be a bit like a robot but it would be for a good cause CC Very interesting, Does you child, whom you where carrying at the time have any kind of physic experiences? Nani Thanks for you input, Satori yes, I always viewed it as a brief enlightenment, and I kicked myself afterwards for wanting to speak to everyone. I also often wonder if I could have held this experience for longer had I just sat somewhere by myself and meditated. I had only been meditating for about a year when this happened so I believe I stumbled upon it by chance. But try as I might I cannot recreate that level of awareness. I often become centralised especially when I go away with the intention of seeking enlightenment, but I have never since obtained a state quite that clear. Your experience is amazing and sad; I wonder where that in between place is, when we are on the verge of death? I personally believe as I imagine you do also that I could not be nearly the person I am today, or have the experiences I have - had I not had some serious lessons in mortality and life. I think to begin to understand life we have to also understand as best we can death. It is only once we alleviate our fear of dying that we can alleviate a fear of living, and really live. Kind Regards Gav
|
|
|
Post by mactombs on Mar 4, 2005 11:51:59 GMT -5
So did I. I wasn't worried much about repercussions, since I already had my share of mental illness before starting anything, and I was very curious. Luckily, my curiousity was the only driving force, and that done, I was inordinately resistant to addiction. (Not to mention I didn't have the serotonin to start with for MDMA to do anything to me anyway. That substance rode the backs of many people I knew).
The similarities you draw between substance effects and trance/meditation effects is something I've noticed as well. In fact, I have found that you can use Monroe's Focus levels to describe different types of drug experiences.
This being said, having this past and then leaving it, and then coming onto the OBE and trance exploration, I have found OBE experiences to be far more intense than anything chemically induced. The vibrations I experienced, for instance, blew away any physical sensation I've ever felt. Experiences I have with translucent water in dreams (pools or tropical waters) leaves me feeling more euphoric than any drug ever did. I can't explain it, but I'm glad it's this way.
At one point when I was getting into OBEs and related things, I thought to myself half-in-humor "So this is where ex-drug experimenters go when they need something more intense than drugs..."
It's a very interesting topic, how your brain relates to your spirit, and clues on the whole thing through the effects of drugs. And not just illegal drugs, but SSRIs, anti-psychotics, etc.
I also wholeheartedly agree that hooking electrodes up to Blake would be a good idea. (While I was writing that line, I got a flashback to a dream I had last night and almost forgot. It seems that I was talking to you and Blake at a long dinner table. Weird. I wish I remembered more.)
|
|
|
Post by blake on Mar 4, 2005 16:50:06 GMT -5
From Gav hahahaha, ok:) If you and Mactombs think it's a good idea I guess I'm out voted 2 to 1 lol
From MactombsI think I had a dream with Gav in it too last night, but I can't remember anything about it except that I had it.
I have also wondered where hallucinations fit into the picture amongst dreams and OBEs. I have read a little about total like schizophrenic hallucinations (ie seeing the TV talk to you) and I would think that those don't relate, but I have also heard some hallucinations described as really realistic dreams. Maybe they are more vivid than the average dream, but with higher subjectivity since they are so "psychadelic". I have never had a hallucination though (I don't think),so I am just guessing. I saw a show on witchcraft and they were suggesting that the broom-riding rumors may have come from witches using a hallucinatory drug (I can't remember the name). Or maybe they were just OBEers and used the drug to help 'em out. I have found that the idea of witches having psychic powers throughout history is not rules out even by people who aren't into anything paranormal at all.
|
|
|
Post by crazycat on Mar 5, 2005 3:51:06 GMT -5
Gav was in one of my dreams the other night. Ever since I had my operation I have this dream forum that is in my dreams all the time any more. Well Gav made a post on my forum. LOL! I have know ideal what it was he post now, but it was something good.
|
|
|
Post by Gav on Mar 6, 2005 8:03:49 GMT -5
Wow I had a busy night! Actually Ronni asked me to do some dream advertising for the forum Seriously though I remember nothing in my dreams that matches any of those dream meetings but that said I don’t well recall my dreams of the last few days. If anyone sees me again ask me to tell you or show you something that only I could know - that would be interesting.(Ill keep it politically correct) We could be on our way to a shared experience there even if I do not specifically recall going anywhere, or it could obviously be coincidence. I have always been a natural dream walker though so perhaps I do it even if I am not conscious of it, perhps we all do. Interesting.
|
|
|
Post by ~¤LilacSky¤~ on Mar 6, 2005 11:35:25 GMT -5
gav-
lol okay Gav If I ever see you Ill be sure to try this!
|
|