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Post by michael on Dec 13, 2006 2:22:39 GMT -5
Is Lucid Dreaming a Illusion of the mind?
If we can control our dreams then we can control I precognitive dreaming?
If Lucid Dreams are obe's then how come we can change it.
In the OBE state we can't really change things unless we go to a certain dimension but if we are in a lucid dream state we can change the surroundings easy compared to obe's.
In obe's we have to put quite some conscious effort to go to the places we wont to go to.
Why can't we see our astral body in lucid dreams
Remember that the astral body is blue.
This is the Riddle of confusion
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Post by Dancing Bear on Dec 13, 2006 2:43:21 GMT -5
Hey Micheal as you know i am not experienced with obe's so could never really compare as you do.. But i can say i do Lucid most of the time.. To me Lucid is knowing you are "dreaming"!! So to me it would be still be a dream..when i Lucid i do get visited by spirit,I can tell it is not dream, How? No idea I just can... But I really really do beleive Lucid is just dreaming that is why you can manipulate it... Dont quote me on this as I really am not into studying my dreams, i just allow them to be.. and dont force much at all... I do tend to Lucid often,, Now i do have dreams that are so very very real and vivid and i know it is only a dream, I am Not OBE'ing and it is Not Lucid coz i cannot control it, I do not know what those ones are called, maybe those are the Lucids that are on a pare with OBE?? God only knows I will stop babbling here coz i havent shed light on anything just confused the crap out of myself here LOL!! Hope someone more into dreams can answer your question here
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Post by crazycat on Dec 13, 2006 4:29:52 GMT -5
Dancing Bear, I agree with you. Luciding is just a dream where you realize you are dreaming.
Michael all dreaming is done in the 4th dimension, which is the astral dimension. An OBE conversion from a lucid dream is when you become aware/awake in the dream and stop the dream without waking up in the physical. Instead you are mentally awake in the astral. That is why it is easier to have an OBE as a lucid conversion, because you are already projected ...all you have to do is wake up and stop the dream scene. Then at that point you realize this, then you can make your affirmation of where or what you want to do or where you would like to go.
I have not been able to do that on purpose, but it happens spontaneously at times. I have been able to do and "on purpose projecting" from an awake trance state, but it sure is hard, at least for me. Most of mine are spontaneous, at a time when I'm not even trying. ;D They do happen more often now. I think the reason for that is through keeping the chakras active by doing mantras. Like last night, I didn't do anything but lay down to go to sleep and it was no time before I was hearing the buzzing bee sound. Sometimes I hear popping and other times roaring wind sound. Sometime I feel my astral body seperating, but most of the time it causes me to come awake physically. Even when I can hear myself snore..LOL.. I know my physical body is sound asleep, but when I try to leave, it wakes me up physical most of the time. One thing that really helps is to practice awareness as much as posible throughout the day, by keeping your mind focused on whatever you are doing and not be letting it wonder off into day dreams. Alot of times when we are doing things we are very familar with, we go into auto mode and our minds are off thinking of something else. Like when you brush your teeth, keep your mind stayed on brushing your teeth or when you're eating a meal, keep your mind on the eating, don't let your mind wonder away to what you are wanting to do tommorow or later. Keep your mind on "now" as much as posibble.
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Post by michael on Dec 13, 2006 15:53:21 GMT -5
Thnxs for the input. Robert Bruce explained that we are already projected. This rings true. How exactly do we specifically transfer consciousness into the projected double during a lucid dream.
I think the obe state is more intouch with reality. Lucid Dream is a low level of awareness that is most likely a illusion.
Also I noticed that when lucid. It stimulates the brainwaves making me wake up. (Sometimes)
Crazycat if you stop the dream seen. What would most likely happen you would die your consciousness and fail. Unless you convert a lucid dream into trance. Here comes the next obstacle.
During our sleep we leave are bodies unconsciously or consciously
Robert Bruce explains how we enter trance that projector has already missed the projection and is stuck in the etheric body. There is no point trying to trigger the projection reflex because it will reel in the projected double.
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Post by crazycat on Dec 13, 2006 21:13:35 GMT -5
Lucid Dream is a low level of awareness that is most likely a illusion.I would say, just regular dreams would be low level of awareness. In lucid dreams you are aware that your are asleep dreaming. In the regular dream you don't even know you are dreaming until you wake up and then you can only recall the last part of the dream it your lucky. But in lucid dreams you have to be aware if you know your dreaming and can change/control the scene. Just like during the day,when you're setting in the class room, and you become aware your mind has wonder off into some daydream scene, rather than being focus on what the teacher is saying. You stop the daydream and get your focus back on your lesson....what is really happening at the moment. You do the same thing when you become conscious in a night dream, you simply stop the night dream and focus on what is happening in the astral at that moment. It's just a matter of training your consciousness to focus on the now at night while sleeping and also while awake physically. If you really pay attention to yourself during the day and try to stay focus as much as you can just doing everyday things, it will help you also to stay focus when your physical body falls asleep. Just remember your consciousness isn't the same as your brain. Your brain falls asleep with your physical body except for the automatic parts that keep your heart beating and lungs breathing and other such. Just the physical outward thinking part shuts down. Your consciousness functions without the physical brain, in out words. Robert Bruce explains how we enter trance that projector has already missed the projection and is stuck in the etheric body. There is no point trying to trigger the projection reflex because it will reel in the projected double.I'm not so sure I understand what you are saying there. I do know that if you should wake up in a dream and try to project, it would cause problems, because you're astral and etheric body is already out. From my understanding from Robert Monroe's books, they both separate from the physical, but the etheric body stays close to the physical body and it is the astal body that can travel wherever it wants. I've often wondered if it could be ones own etheric body when they sense a presence nearby them when they consciously project. It's a possibility that your own etheric body is the watcher over the threshold. That make sense to me if it should be so. ;D
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Post by michael on Dec 17, 2006 18:10:36 GMT -5
Wow I almost obed yesterday. Holded my awareness and tried to shift consciousness into my projected double. Didn't work because I opened my eyes in trance, which woke me up, or I stayed to long in my body that caused me to withdrawal from the projection. This is the MAJOR OBSTICAL I have to get passed. Plus Medication and inner neg.
I have never any much access to projection exposure. I am always having blank dreaming for weeks and weeks.
That's why I will do Qi gong as soon as possible.
Thanks for explaining CC. But it still feels LIKE dreams are just low level of awareness. OBE is the ultimate state of awareness and it can get even HIGHER.
For example Lucid Dreams are when people are aware they are in a dream NOT AWARE that they are in the OBE REALM.
They might be aware they are in the astral realm in a dream but still stuck in the lucid dream state.
The brain has a big influence on what we dream. Consciousness is influenced by the brain. The main cause of dreaming is REM and half of hypnogic is brain hallucinations.
For example if we are sleep deprived for a few days the brain starts making us hallucinate because we enter a trance state or the sleeping chemicals fill our heads causing it.
Crazycat I know you have the book astral dynamics. If you read chapter complications of consciousness you will know what I mean. If your not sure about the meaning of the words look at the definitions at the end of the book.
Here's another question. During the physical state it is said to believe that our other bodies are flouting somewhere experiencing other dimensions. IF this is true then why do energy healers find out they all layers of body are intact with the physical body not somewhere else.
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Post by nani on Dec 17, 2006 18:31:41 GMT -5
Hi folks, great questions and great answers !!! btw: whats the difference between etheric and astral body again ?
oh and about LD, Michael, I would say that Existenceisadream really is a kind of professor on this ;-))
one more thing, I definitely do believe that our other bodies are working on other purposes on other realms while we are in the physical, or dreaming or even while obeing. But I can not translate your question Michael, can you put it into other words again, thanx, cause it sounds very interesting as far as I understand. allthebest, Nani
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Post by BenHangen on Dec 17, 2006 20:10:21 GMT -5
OMG I’ve projected into this world and can’t wake up.
The etheric body, ether-body, æther body, or vital body is one of the subtle bodies in esoteric philosophies, in some religious teachings and in New Age thought. It is understood as a sort of life force body or aura that constitutes the "blueprint" of the physical body, and which sustains the physical body.
The prana-maya-kosha (sheath made of life-force) of Vedantic thought could be considered equivalent to the etheric body.
The astral body refers to the concept of a subtle body which exists alongside the physical body, as a vehicle of the soul or consciousness. It is usually understood as being of an emotional nature and, as such, it is equated to the desire body or emotional body. However, some philosophies conceive that the astral body is a body made of ether (the soul body), built by each individual during the current evolutionary stage (the Philosophers' Stone), which is said to give support to the desire (emotional) body during the astral projection.
That was from Wikipedia
Nani imagine a mediation where you feel your whole body as energy, the vibrations, and when you open your eyes all you see is the energy in the form of the body. This has been my experiences and that’s all I know.
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Post by crazycat on Dec 18, 2006 1:35:03 GMT -5
OMG I’ve projected into this world and can’t wake up. Ben, hehe....that is so true of all of us. ;D Thanks for explaining CC. But it still feels LIKE dreams are just low level of awareness. OBE is the ultimate state of awareness and it can get even HIGHER. Michael of course the OBE would be an even more higher awareness level, because you would be experiencing the real rather than an illuional dream, but your consciouness has to be in a aware awake state to be lucid in the first place. If you are unable to stop the dream then your awareness level is not very high even though you are awake enough to know you are dreaming. one more thing, I definitely do believe that our other bodies are working on other purposes on other realms while we are in the physical, or dreaming or even while obeing. But I can not translate your question Michael, can you put it into other words again, thanx, cause it sounds very interesting as far as I understand. allthebest, NaniI believe that as well Nani. It's good to have you back with us. You were very missed by me. Ben, I'm glad you explained that about the etheric and astral bodies.... I am wondering about the astral body being of the same the emotional, even though I have read in other place that the astral is equated with the emotions. When you name the different levels, you have the physical, etheric, astral, emotional, mental, spiritual and causal. I'm not for sure where the causal fits in there or just can't remember and can't remember where I read that from. It seemed like it was between the emotional and mental. I do remember the astral as listed separate from the emotional. One of my books says there are only four bodies and list the astral as the same as the emotional, but it also list the spirit/soul as one and the same and doesn't even list the etheric at all. It may have been one of Monroe's books that listed them all. Not for sure.
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Post by nani on Dec 18, 2006 19:07:16 GMT -5
Ben, thank you for explaining! :-) "...philosophies conceive that the ASTRAL body is a body made of ETHER (the soul body), built by each individual during the current evolutionary stage (the Philosophers' Stone), which is said to give support to the desire (EMOTIONALl) body during the astral projection....." So.. then, referring to Obes it sounds as if we would use/travell with all of them, with the astral, the etheric and the emotion-body..!..? Or at least we could say that those are not really seperated from each other, at least those are influencing each other?!? Then what could be meant by Robert Bruce when he`s talking about "split-problems". Which of those bodies (supposed RB is right) would be staying fixed, causing the problem of not be able to fully seperate? (Okay as I remember he just names as a reason that not enough amount of awareness is taken into the astral body..)
In one of my first OBEs (rather shortly before the final seperation) I`ve seen/perceived my own body as only energy, that was incredible, I never will forget. Ben, thank you for that beautiful extended picture and pratice.
Hey LindaLove (and Ben), that is very interesting, I also would love to hear and know (again-cause my brain is a sieve lol) how those different "body"-layers do refere to each other. And also how they refere to different experiences on the astral plane, or better said while obeing. I guess there are kind of planes for each subtle body, so if we reach somewhere while Obe, then I guess that the most active subtle body does lead us to "his" plane.. hm.. a bit complicated expressed. I mean I just could assume that where we arrive - after we had seperated - is mirroring also the appropriate subtle body which is most active at time of departure. Or Im on a totallly wrong track here with my untamed thoughts lol. Have missed ya guys, :-) Nani
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Post by BenHangen on Dec 18, 2006 21:46:36 GMT -5
All these different bodies get confusing to me too Nani. I feel that someone decided it to be that way to explain emotional states of being. Most of the explanations I have heard coincide with kundalini and the seven chakras. I relate to it more on that level but can see and feel it on a much higher level.
Everyone seems to agree that we have all these other bodies, the soul, astral, Etheric, and so on so it would seem that this body in the 3D world is the connection between all of the above. With that kind of logic you could assume that somehow we are the center of the universe. Could be that we are the tesseract or the door to other worlds. If only we could believe.
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Post by nani on Dec 19, 2006 18:32:22 GMT -5
Hi Ben: "Most of the explanations I have heard coincide with kundalini and the seven chakras." Yes I`ve read and thought so too. What Im wondering about right now is, why the Kagyü-Buddhist do have/use only 5 chakras. I will find out soon I guess.
"..this body in the 3D world is the connection between all of the above. With that kind of logic you could assume that somehow we are the center of the universe" Wow, I`ve never watched it from this side. Ahm.. okay I-ego quite often felt like the centre of the world lol I have to admit. But seriously, its true, where else would all these bodies be ONE, except in the melted last station in light. I mean anyways we as in-bodies are such amazing great creations isnt it, but.. really.. I`ve to contemplate more about this thought of: being incarnated does mean to gather/compile all our subtle bodies alltogether. That somehow sounds and feels so awesome..... broadening.. recognition..on a subtle level...
Like many I also believe that those subtle other bodies of us do have no boundries though, rather they`re walking and working around totally independetly of where our consciousness is. But to say the least, we can - as far as we`re able to raise consciousness - become and be a participant of our own bodies. "become a participant" sounds funny somehow. And with those different bodies we can - from the view of our brain only logically considered - explore those different strange worlds/planes, but which in fact never can be strange or unknown. Cause at those subtle planes our subtle bodies are at their home, those subtle bodies are made of the same as the appropriate plane is made. So anyhow the only instance which perceives something as un-known is our limited brain. God I could get into rambling on and on, cause your inspirational thoughts do trigger a lot hey. but for now better, peaceNani :-)
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Post by michael on Dec 19, 2006 18:36:24 GMT -5
Im not trying to confuse anyone. Im not using any high tech wording. Simple and easy to read text.
I will explain it to you anyway.
Robert Bruce explains the complications of consciousness. The 2 mind split copies are made where they are recorded at the same time. The recording part means the memory. It gets more complicated then that so I wont get into too much netty gritty detail. Sometimes we fail to take part in the obe experience from the point of shifting consciousness. That's why we are stuck in the disoriented etheric body. - Tranced body. While the astral body is outside to play.
The projection reflex means stimulating the projection using awareness which at that point causes projection symptoms and unstoppable automatic projection.
You will only understand me from first hand experience. If you have had a healer give you reiki he/ she will show you the levels of each body and where they are located. If you had this done. You have first hand experience. You will notice that the fact that all bodies are aligned and not somewhere else projecting in a different dimension while we are physically awake.
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Post by nani on Dec 19, 2006 18:54:41 GMT -5
Michael, you`ve said something very important for me here.. not sure yet if I understood well.. but could be a solution or explanation for some of my obe-probs.. like I experience lots of semi-splitting.. maybe Im stuck in the ether-body or what the heck.. possibly Im starting to understand something better.. I`ll come back on this, surely also to ask some more, now sleep-neccessity first, peaceNani
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Post by osiris on Dec 19, 2006 20:07:23 GMT -5
Hello,
I was thinking to go at this from a converging angle. I do like all that was said and feel it to be very unimportant for obe and lucid dreaming. Thats beside the point. We Have many bodies that a Reiki practitioner can find and heal. But they are out wondering, all our bodies ok most theres one or two we need to stay alive. They travel about and indeed are with us at all times. When you are concious in a lucid dream thats all you are. your conciousness is there. That does not at all make lucid dreaming any less important. When you are obe you are conciously there and your energy body is there also. Thats why bruce would say you missed out on obe. Because at certain vibrations and frequencies we travel by differant means. The aether body is the "underworld" body its the worldly energy and also what we would call the ego. The astral body is the spirit the body capable of anything. Its the higher self. The Calls:
The original set of calls given to Dee and Kelley were described as opening 49 gates and connected tablets. These tablets would seem to be those given in Liber Loagaeth, though the details are not clear yet. The calls open gates through which energy is transmitted and invoke the things mentioned in the calls including the I Ged spirits. The beings invoked do not seem to be intrinsically connected with the gates, as the connected tablets are. Rather, they seem to represent one way of employing the energy. The calls have a 7-fold pattern that seems to derive from the gates. This does not fit neatly with the structures found through the calls, in particular that of the aethers. It can be described roughly as follows: 0: These calls (0,7,14,etc.) seem to have a sense of reaching a sense of unity to complete the preceeding calls and then returning to form to begin the next set. 1-3: These relate to some barrier to be reached through, with the first being outside projecting in, the second inside obeying the first, and the third giving a passage through connecting these two. 4: These have a quality of brightness and peace that make receptivity possible. They connect to the Worldsoul who lives at the center of the Earth. 5: These have an extraterrestrial connection admitted by means of the preceding. 6: These have a quality of earthly manifestation of higher plans. The calls involve a structure referred to in the 4th-6th calls as angles and in the 8th call as heavens. These would seem to connect like the points of an M and fit with the formula IHShVH as follows:
Angle: Aethers: Plane: I 4 1-10 causal H 3 11-19 mental Sh 2 20-22 mental V 23-29 astral H 30 astral.
The fifth point, which relates to the IALPIRGAH "flames of first glory" in call 7, is Haditian, the root of consciousness. The first point, corresponding to call 3, relates especially to the lower set of twelve seats mentioned there which are the zodiac. The zodiac seems to correspond to the turning from the astral to mental planes in the Enochian system and seems to be a major barrier. In contrast, the turning from the mental to the causal, where the Abyss is usually placed, seems to be incidental. There are two copies of the zodiac involved, one at the outside of the veil over the Earth and equivalently outside the aethers, the other between the aethers LIN and TOR. These seem to relate to the distinction between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs. Inside the inner zodiac, the sidereal zodiac which runs Aries-Pisces holds sway. Between the two zodiacs, the tropical zodiac which runs Pisces-Aries holds sway. Outside the outer zodiac, there is just the direct influence of the stars and planets. The aethers are apparently incidental and perhaps identical with the veil over the Earth. Their geography is apparently simple, with TEX nearest the Earth and the rest running outward in order. The first call invokes the authority of Iad Balt, who is coordinator of the watchtower angels amongst others, and is directed specifically at the watchtower angels. The second call is also well suited to working with the watchtower angels and tends to give a more material oriented feel. The next sixteen calls invoke the I Ged spirits amongst others. As some of the I Ged spirits employ the watchtower angels, this gives an indirect connection between the calls and the angels. Efforts by the GD an others to parcel out the angels between the calls seem very misguided to me. Consider the 7th call, which invokes the NI among others. As the NI are able to employ all of the subquarters between them, it does not make sense to suppose that the 7th call is limited to only one quarter or subquarter. Further details on the calls can be found in my essay on them.
hope that helps with the aethyrs some.
Given that we do not need this information to project im just now starting to get the full meanings myself for magick.
Now when you lucid dream its not necesarily just some place you made up in your mind. You could be somewhere that a group or society have "believed" into existance. Or a place that exists outside of the space our physical takes up. Its no more real than here. When in obe we feel the affects and act more as if we are in our body because the energy that is there takes the shape of what we can most understand, plus the shape that is has been in for some time. I have changed my opinion on obe over the time i was gone a bit. I do believe its important for us. I was of the mindset that only the dream mattered. But now i think both learning to lucid dream for the sake of later being able to remote view and to obe because its the best means of "attracting" others of my kind.
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Post by crazycat on Dec 19, 2006 20:42:02 GMT -5
Hmm.. on that funfilled OBE website that you started MichaelThe following is the way that guy see it: The lower worlds are comprised of four major planes: The physical, astral, causal, and mental world. We as individuals exist simultaneously on all these planes. Just as we have a physical body, we have a corresponding astral (emotional) body, a causal (memory) body, and a mental (thought) body.
These worlds exist within us as the microcosm of our bodies, and outside us as the macrocosm of the planes of reality. These are all parts of the lower planes of existence. then there is the higher planes. The higher worlds begin with the soul plane and ascend through various spiritual states to the God plane, also known as the Ocean of Love and Mercy. As our true self, we eternally exist as Soul on the soul plane, yet in the human state we inhabit the bodies of the lower worlds listed above. In the human consciousness we are mostly unaware of the other planes because we identify very strongly with the physical body and its world, to the point that we believe it is the only reality. However, since we exist on all planes in our corresponding bodies, all we have to do is awaken our senses there to experience them.This helps me to understand it more, I think. LOL
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Post by osiris on Dec 19, 2006 20:47:46 GMT -5
And thus we have the tree of life. And dont forget the roots. That explains also why some believe in 5 and some believe 7 for the chakra. By the way just go with what works for you. They are all incorporated weather you believe five of seven. Here look on the left. www.tree-o-life.org/science/index.html
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Post by crazycat on Dec 19, 2006 21:23:40 GMT -5
Ah! I decide to look up Paul Twitchell who this Steve DeWitt is quoting so much and found that he is the one who began Eckankar...hehe that is where I read about all the different bodies some time ago.
Eckankar believes in the duality of the soul and body. The soul is the inner, most sacred part of an individual. It is eternal, without beginning or end. It lives only in the present. One's soul can exist and travel separately from the body and even from the mind. A person is capable of exploring other planes of existence, through Soul Travel. Unlike "Astral Projection" which is taught by other spiritual traditions, Soul Travel is not limited to the Astral Plane; it allows you to go further and explore any of the God worlds. Among the 11 worlds there are 5 lower (psychic or material) and 6 upper (spiritual) planes. Each has a regular name; a classical name; an associated sound and light; a Temple of Golden Wisdom and a guardian. The lower planes are: Physical plane: the coarsest material level
Astral plane: the "source of human emotion, psychic phenomena, ghosts and UFO's". Causal plane: where memories of previous lives are stored
Mental plane: which contains the source of ethics, moral teachings and philosophy
Etheric plane: this is the boundary with the higher worlds. It is the source of the "subconscious and primitive thoughts".
So from this it seems that the etheric plane is the veil between the higher and lower and since it is describe as a dark fog, which many are calling the void. On Steve's website, he said the etheric body was a shadow body of type:
In the human microcosm this buffer zone is known as the etheric body, which appears as a thin, black sheath around the mental body. The etheric body is also widely called intuition, or the unconscious, because one of its functions is to act as the conduit for divine inspiration from Soul to the mind.
I guess was not so far off thinking that the etheric body could be the guardian of the threshold or the shadow self.
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Post by crazycat on Dec 19, 2006 23:15:47 GMT -5
Well upon farther reading, this Eckankar is a cult movement, so what they have to say may not be what is so. Paul Twitchell created his belief system from several different religions or belief systems, so I don't know which he got the different bodies types from...maybe from Hindu or Buddha or something else. I enjoyed reading about the "tree of life", Osiris. Hehe.. I printed out that recipe for split pea puddin, just may try that some day.
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Post by nani on Dec 20, 2006 10:54:41 GMT -5
Osiris, great stuff you are posting here. But hey god guys&girls where from you all got such tremendous amounts of knowledge, lots of wisdom in all that gosh. Though seems as if you all would use a bit different terms (but partly for the same thing) and thats what I first need to sort out more. Honestly said, I would love to have a huge Chart in which all different meanings of all philosophies, terms and teachings are set beside each other and explained, distinguished and compared. Now I`ve read again over all posts and pououuuhh sweat lol.. I dont know if I get more clever or more confused.. probably both lol.. okay i`ll try to reduce and attach somewhere Osiris, when you say "Energybody" - which body you then are speaking of? Then, to most what you`ve said I agree, but I`ve never heard anybody saying that the astral-body is the higher.self. In my view the astral body Could be representing an aspect of our higher.self, but it not neccessarily Is the HS. Can you explain how you come to see it this way. To see the aether-body as an underworld-body sounds quite reasonable. So but here again asked sorry, how does that etheric-body effect us, our life, our OBEs? Or hinder them? Which role does it play? Michael: "...Sometimes we fail to take part in the obe experience from the point of shifting consciousness. That's why we are stuck in the disoriented etheric body. - Tranced body. While the astral body is outside to play.." Michael that sounds reasonable and helpful for me to understand what seems to happen to me frequently. But can you please explain again, Why you assert that it is the Etheric Body we get stucked in!? Is it because the Etheric-Body is supposed to be the next/nearest body to the physical.body And asked to all: how does meditation effect explicit the etheric.body And how can we explicit work, heal and develop our etheric.body (in difference to our astral.body I mean). Is there something special we can do? Finally you all got my brain sweating LOL, so now tell me fast: what the heck does this etheric-thingeee need to be happy?? ;-)) peaceNani
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