Ch. 2 The Gateway of Images

[Lena]

October 18 to October 25

Sooo looking forward to reading this one...!!

So did everyone get their book? I forgot to ask.

[existenceisadream]

LOL hmm Lena... May 18 to May 25? Are we trying to go into the future? Or into the past?

[~~section8...]

Haha. May I still need to read it!!!

[existenceisadream]

Went to the park today and read this chapter. Reading this has brought me back to how I felt back before I stopped visiting this forum a couple years ago. Actually back even further. Back when I was practicing all of this. I was apart of a group called Dream Hackers for awhile and I remember the beginning of it we spent working on focusing our attention to the darkness beyond closed eyes and being an active observer in what took place while falling deeper into trance.

Anyways reading this book is getting me excited again to get back into what I was doing years ago but have strayed away from.
I liked the quote "the plane of coexistence of the two worlds" for explaining the stage between awake and sleep or hypnagogic and hypnopompic.

The way Moss explains the twilight zone, do you think he's also referring to sleep paralysis? I understand that there's many levels of the "twilight zone" but if you can manage to stay conscious long enough while your body falls asleep then you enter sleep paralysis which for me has always been a launching pad for OBE's. Do you think he's referring to the twilight zone as something different and separate than sleep paralysis or do they meet up at some point?

I liked this chapter though nothing really too new in it to me but inspiring for sure.

Oh ya and the exercise in this chapter of trying to walk through a picture... I've only tried this once awhile back after OBE'ing. I had actually intended to try this before hand. So once OOB I went into my living room and walked up to my painting of and awesome beach ocean scene. I attempted to enter it and just bumped into it failing. So far that's been my only attempt that I recall right now of trying to enter into a picture.

The way Moss writes it seems like he expects you should be able to do this without having to really even go that deep into a trance or sleep... I have a feeling this book is going to be very advanced and will quickly get more difficult as far as the exercises go... which isn't a bad thing. But I believe a great deal of time should be spent on working with consciously entering the "twilight zone" and "playing" with it. Something that can take a great while to "master".

So if anybody is having difficulties with this don't fret too hard. Even when I was really into all this years ago it took some time to be able to freely move into the "twilight zone" and the such.

OK done for now. lol. Time for bed... See if I can't play in the T.Z.

[nani]

hi fellows, i`ve finished the second chapter and can not say yet if or how it influences me, sure is i like it and further sure that i will take it on my journey on coming saturday and read on. I guess the best for me right now is to just take all whats written inside and just let it effect whatever. So also its that i can not answer anything about how he means the "twighlight referring to sleep-paralysis" but probably furhteron will understand better. So friends, stay healthy and groovy and of course dreaming as consciously as possible

solong, best regards, nani

[Lena]

Oct 19, 2010 21:14:38 GMT -5 existenceisadream said:

LOL hmm Lena... May 18 to May 25? Are we trying to go into the future? Or into the past?

I...DON'T...KNOW That was odd.

[Lena]

Funny thing is, Derek, when I clicked on this thread, I was contemplating how unconscious I am in most of my dreams and how my dreams seem to be on such a different layer from normal reality, that how can I ever become conscious? I think maybe it is a message about how unconscious I am a lot of times even in waking hours. Sometimes I do that on purpose. I thought about this before, and sometimes I become too aware of how unreal the reality is, and then I want to forget it. Maybe that's what density and higher vibration difference is? In density, we are unaware of how unreal things things are and we move up the vibrational scale, we gain more awareness that everything is shaped with our thoughts. For example, with my raw food experiment, I do believe I moved up vibration frequency,but then it was too much to handle, so I wanted heavy things to bring me back down to lower level of awareness. That might only make sense in my head, I suppose ;D But it's fun to let my brain ramble.

So...you know, this goes along with my above ramble, and I think about how my intention, when I get in bed is always to grab as much sleep as I can before baby will wake me up. Of course, with intention like that, I just pass out and don't wake up until I'm woken up. Time to set different intentions?

AND...I think I only experienced sleep paralysis once and even then, I was half out, so not true sleep paralysis, I don't think. I don't see it as a necessary part of the process though, just like noise and vibrations are not, once you are more advanced. Also, Derek, Moss has been dream traveling (I'm sure lucid as well as OBEs) since he was young because he was sick, so I think he wouldn't have too much first hand experience with dream paralysis, but who knows.

[existenceisadream]

I know what you mean about the going through life sometimes with low level awareness. I find this happens to me as well. Sometimes I'll be so unconscious and I'll just snap out of it and be like "WOA, I need to wake up!" and awareness will come flooding in. Really it can be just like becoming aware in a dream. When you start to view both the worlds (body asleep dream and body awake dream) as being just as valid and real, then how aware you are in either is much the same. Gaining awareness in either dream is quite the same.

That's how I've been lately with sleep as well. I'll lie down (on my back) for bed and work for a second with breathing and "the twilight zone" but then when I do fall into it losing consciousness but then snap out of it and wake up right away I then usually just switch over to my side to "try" to just fall to sleep. And when I wake through out the night I'll sometimes right a few key words down from dreams but for the most part I've been just more interested in getting back to "sleep" and not caring much about getting conscious while asleep.

I feel I almost need to separate active dream practice and sleep. For instance like plan to wake up early by a couple hours and go about my day and then plan to spend a couple hours before work (well that's how my schedule is, I work at the end of the day instead of at the beginning) really working with lying on my back and working with the "twilight zone" and the such. The problem lies in when I plan to wake up early to do this I end up just hitting the damn snooze alarm for 2 hours and wake up at my normal time.

Hmm I've experienced sleep paralysis a ton. Back when I was more advanced and could keep consciousness between lucid dreams, I would end up in sleep paralysis between these dreams. As in as one lucid dream would begin to fade I would do my keeping awareness chant until I was floating in "the void" (as I call it) which is sleep paralysis (body asleep mind awake) and then wait till the next dream began to take shape and since I already had awareness once the dream was solid around me I could move about it.
The hard part for me has always been to enter this void or sleep paralysis consciously from an awake state instead from a dream state.
When you can feel comfortable in sleep paralysis it's really a quite amazing place. You can meditate in it, OBE/AP from it, watch a dreamscape create itself around you, and so on. That's why I feel that sleep paralysis and "the twilight zone" have a lot in common.

[crazycat]

I did take it that when he spoke of the hypnagogic and hypnomompic, that this is the mind awake /body asleep state where sleep paralyasis takes place. The twilight zone could really be any of the altered states, I guess. Even the quick little trancing out and experincing a vision. I would say those types of vision takes place in the beginning alpha state. Sleep paralyasis takes place when you are deeper into alpha or beginning of delta I think. Right?

Do you all feel that is true that all astral guest come by invitation only? I know there are some I would not have consicously invited. hehe!

Linda

[existenceisadream]

From what I've read when we dream our brainwaves, though in delta while sleeping, will have much more theta activity as well. I would think when we gain consciousness while we're asleep whether it be during a dream or during sleep paralysis, that theta waves would even be more dominant at that time.
I feel the twilight zone can happen not in sleep paralysis. But I find it's very hard to keep consciousness during that state without waking yourself back up. Like I can keep a nice level of "detached awareness" while images and dreamscapes begin to develop. But as soon as I try to focus on them or think about what I'm seeing, it all disappears and I'll wake into a more conscious waking level.
It's much easier for me to consciously enter the twilight zone after waking from an alarm and hitting snooze and drifting back off. Or even better if I had partied hard the night before and am just beat from it and am sleeping half the next day away. That's when it just gets easy to enter into the twilight zone. I can do it all day in that state... Too bad it's not the best method. As in drinking heavy just to have awesome active dreaming the next day. That's one reason why I got so good and lucid dreaming when I first started out lol. I was drinking nearly everyday and so spent a lot of time sleeping to recover and conscious dreaming was easy because of it.

It's nice to believe that astral guests only come by "invitation" but I'm not so sure about that... Moss relates the active dream state much like being here in the real world... and in the real world an uninvited guest can show up at anytime.

Though I feel a lot of what occurs in sleep paralysis and OBE is very much fear based. I've had times where I would visited by an "uninvited guest" and as soon as I calmed down and didn't "fear" it, it would go away.

[~¤LilacSky¤~]

hey everyone, interesting to read your feedback, however I cant get into this book lol, I tired and tired again, soo many things just dont touch base with me and as far as simplicity go's this is ideal for a more advanced base IMO.
however Im reading a differant book lol called the quickening, which is very much relative to the subject however no nonsense as far as shamanism and things like that, it is more up my alley I think, honestly alot of writers are just outlandish with too many things involved, when really things are quite simple.
the hypnogongic state is in fact for the advanced in my opinion, because once you learn to seperate your mind and body this is the key point, however....if we can not detach from either or the result is either too much subconsious coming into form creating hallucinations/images/dream images usually which creates fear OR our body becomes "heavy" in such a way it also creates fear, and honestly this is what I think happens when we are close to death that is why it is so frightening, the mind is alert while the body lay dormant.
sooo it is OR will be the best launching pad because you are not only cutting through the boundaries of the physcial body but also the illusions of the mind, so have your sword ready when you enter this state...also I think the vibrations are made to coax us into relaxation, however we fear the unknown instantly so we dont always respond in kind to those or sounds.
I would like to present something more personal on a study, because reading a book is excellent to help you get going however we are still lacking information in a big way as a whole.
sooo maybe like while you guys do this study, try doing one that is more intimate such as all of us focus on a subject could be anything but somehthing that runs deeply and focus say for a week or so than we record our dream results.I personally think we should focus on our greatest fear and perhaps that will not only lead us to conquer our fears but lead us on to where we are really trying to go and what we really want to do here, understand.
just a suggestion guys, I mean Im having alot of trouble in my heart right now and missing my mom and my dreams are so hard to face sometimes, and I think I need a breakthrough with this in order to move on, because I cant move on! and my siblings seem to be doing better than me with this and I just dont see how.
and I also think that I have a gigantic wall up the size of the planet because my heart is aching so bad right now I just cant face more crap ya know , not to mention crap going on at work and financial garbage and love bs of this life lol...its like come on when am I gonna get a break, I cant take on all an possibly have positive dreams grrrrr, let alone try to launch a obe, not that my focus is negative , its just still grieving, basicly all systems are shut down for now and Im just gettin by day by day and the dreams I do have just really toss me through a worm hole and I can not shake the feelings they leave or impressions, I guess waht Im saying is I figured something out that Im not ready to go to the next level of awareness, and honestly I think that is just how it works for all of us, we can try to push through the walls but it wont happen untill we are in the state we need to be in. I have read so many posts about timing and obes and awareness itself that it all comes down to us being ready.
pls dont get me wrong I think doing studies and things help us prepare for it, however the outside must be ready as well as the inside if that makes any sense???This journey of life is so crazy sometimes I dont know I can keep up and all I ask for is simplicity and having the understanding to move forward here.
wow....I hope the admin didnt ruin this thread.
I dont know guys I think I wanna try pushing through the outside for a change and see what happens instead of trying to understand what I yet can not on the inside... ;D
I personaly think they work together however if your lost and quistioning everything I think ya need time and observation and inner guidance. but for me I just cant do this study right now, I have too much to get past on the physical level , however Im still gonna follow my dreams and try to understand, but one thing I realized is the limitations and walls you have in waking life the more you have to get through in the sub in order to cut through both effectivley(physical/mental)which will enable you to launch from the hypnogongic state, because both are against you here in obe's. they both do the same, they create limitations in the spiritual meanwhile they create vehicles in the physical. its the physical we must get past and that includes our bodies most importantly , and its not far fetched at all, I think everyone can do this really, and I dont know about alot of people who claim they can do more, honestly obes are close to death IMO and most people even half the writers out there claim to do some impossible things but perhaps they just give so much energy to their own hypothesis therefore it exists.
shit I just opened up another can, sorry lol..okay Im done I just wanted to tell yall that im with you and reading n stuff I just can not read that book...to me its just another man brainwashed by another man an the chain continues lol, I like things simple and direct no bs.
its like this the more I try to reach in , the more it pushes me out.
btw what ever happend to steven laberg??

[crazycat]

Hi Derek, I forgot about theta, that is between alpha and delta, isn't it? There are some people who can even stay mind awake through delta. There is another state after delta call gamma and some Tibetans and such can even stay mind awake in that level. I bought a tape by Dr. Jeffery Tompson that takes you to gamma, but don't see what is the purpose, I have not been able to stay mind awake, maybe a minute through the whole tape. If you need a sleep aid, it can sure do that.

I don't know if there are uninvited guest even in the physical, at least not going by new agers, who say we chose/create everything that happens to us. Hehe! I guess you could say an uninvited guest is an intruder and not a guest at all. Just some word play there.

Ronni, I like to keep things simple too. The way I see it, different writers use different words or phases that mean the same as the other guys. I would not say that Moss is a clone of other experts in the sleep/dream field since he has been at it since a young child. I just see him as giving a little different view on it as than some of the others such as Steven Laberge.

Robert Moss has an interesting take being an Austraian and where the original Aboriginal Dreamtime Story began.

www.crystalinks.com/dreamtime.html

www.google.com/search?q=Australin%20Dreamtime&hl=en&tbs=vid:1



I think I may have experienced these little guys before.

[Lena]

Mmmkay...So different reactions from everyone. My own is that I have been just a little uninvolved and indifferent. There, I said it. I had lots of enthusiasm to start up with dreaming again, but I just don't care that much to put in major effort in that direction.

I agree with Ronni and Derek too that some of the stuff he is writing in this chapter is a little advanced. I wonder what it would be like to study some kind of pure technique book (I mean here) without a spiritual spin on it, like Robert Bruce's stuff. I guess it comes down to preference.

Ronni, I do find Robert Moss quite genuine. I don't pretend to understand your whole post, but *hugs* to you. Really, take it easy on yourself. When I was grieving death of a friend, I was paralyzed for a while and it stays with you I find, but pain transforms into more pleasant remembrance. And finally, I think all of us are dealing with one issue or another, going through ups and downs. I have plenty of issues to work with, but thing is I can never have it all figured out so I do the best I can. I agree with you, that when you are in a bad space emotionally, it's hard to have positive dreams or OBEs for that matter. It takes a relaxed and playful state with no immediate emergencies to attend to. But I do think that dreaming can provide a good healing experience as well. I think dreams guide you to better feeling states too, so just pay attention to that. That's my opinion, Ronni. Take it or leave it, as always

OK, so looks like this chapter is at the end. No cool experiences to report so far, although I've been at least remembering some dreams and quickly jotting them down.

I find it kind of difficult to get into in-between state. I'm either really passed out or fully awake...I do feel encouraged to keep going with it all, especially cause you guys are here.

[existenceisadream]

Lena, why do you think you've been uninterested with dream work? Do you think at this time in your life that waking life has enough "stuff" for you to focus on that trying to add in dream work just isn't working?

Everybody. I feel all of us are gong through our own deals and issues or whatever. I know I have... But I feel no reason to give up on this study. Not just this book study but all of it... Besides that I feel dream work is a very personal deal. Again not just dream work but everything there is (dreaming, meditation, belief systems, etc.). So regardless of whether we're actively participating here or recording in our dream journals "here" it doesn't mean we're not actively doing things where it really matters. Which is in our moment to moment life. Everyday I record in my dream journal, and think deeply about the dreams and relate them to things that happened in the previous days to trigger them and so on. There's dreams here and there I want to record here on the forum but don't always get around to it. But the important thing is to do it for yourself. I'm to the point to where I go hiking for hours a few times a week. For me this is my church. Nature. Exercise, meditation, exploration, etc. I've had some close calls... here in the last couple months rock climbing some pretty intense terrain. But I say I'd rather die like that (living life) than a heart attack sitting in front of my computer or TV (the places I hike are sort of like bear and mountain lion country as well... came across a bear last week). I do this for me. I used that example because for me this is such an important aspect in my life. To get outside and away from all this crap (cell phones, computers, house, work, city, technology, and so on) often and feel free from it all even if it's just for several hours several times a week.

There's only so many hours of the day and we have the choice of what to do with them. We can say I want to do this or that but what matters is actually doing it. The word intent again comes back to me. Where does our intents lie. Are we even in control of it/them? I feel we have semi control but often feel there's other forces at work that drive us...

I've always had a hard time following a particular curriculum. For me reading a chapter a week is just too slow. It's nice to think that I could read the chapter at the beginning of the week and then work on the exercises and focus on the material for that week. But I have such a hard time working like that. For instance I was really bummed last week when I was reading in the park and realized I came to the end of chapter 2 all too soon. I wanted to keep reading but wanted to stay true to this book study. And like I said before. The main focus of chapter 2 which is learning to consciously enter "the twilight zone" isn't exactly a skill to work on for a week and then your're ready to go. It's something that takes a ton of practice to get good at. So for me I think I'm just going to have to read at my own pace but I still like the idea of using separate threads for the separate chapters. That way we can discuss certain key concepts that are in each chapter with a bit more organization.

I feel though I hit a bit of a rough patch in the last couple months, I still have a lot of energy towards working with dreaming and related stuff. Hell it's heading towards winter... Makes me want to lucid dream even more!

Ok enough lol. Back to the dream study...
So this last week I've worked a lot with "the twilight zone". Can't say I've gained much progress. Still having the issue of beginning the practice well and being able to consciously view images and beginnings of dreamscapes. But when I drift in too deep and lose awareness and then snap back and wake up, I'm tired and want to just roll over and go to sleep. Will continue to work with this.

[nani]

Existenceisadream: "Hmm I've experienced sleep paralysis a ton......"
that is mega interesting for me what all you are saying and describing here. Also it reminds me to some things i`ve read of Robert Bruce (i just had started to study again before we startet here with Moss, which i really deeply do appreciate)
Linda: "I did take it that when he spoke of the hypnagogic and hypnomompic,...."
Me too i got kind of flashes of recognition when i did read about that, very exciting and somehow new to me all this.
Ronni: "and honestly I think that is just how it works for all of us, we can try to push through the walls but it wont happen untill we are in the state we need to be in...."
Absolutely agree, in every cell agree. To me that thing sometimes feels as if i/we would be sitting in a cage and the time when we will be free again is fixed yet but still it is important to shake the grill as much and as hard as possible, as if this shaking just would belong to the fixed freeing date, dont know if i can express what imean.
Lord i have to read and catch on your posts muuuch more

[nani]

wow Linda this Didge-Film is sooo great whooohooo and incredible thing too is that exactly these little dancers we had for years on our plakat which announces when we where would play with our band lol, this once was made by a painter living in canarian islands, but anywhere cause these little figures are kind of archetypes, wow fantastiv viewing this, i guess i`ll dream of those tonight yeahs smilelaugh

[nani]

Existenceisadream: "But I feel no reason to give up on this study. Not just this book study but all of it... Besides that I feel dream work is a very personal deal. Again not just dream work but everything there is (dreaming, meditation, belief systems, etc.). So regardless of whether we're actively participating here or recording in our dream journals "here" it doesn't mean we're not actively doing things where it really matters. Which is in our moment to moment life...."
I absolutely agree!! Lets not get into pushing ourselfs too much, but just keep on and more FLOW with it all, with us, with being here in one or another kind united, cause finally its the ENERGETICALLY thing, our intent to bring and focus our energies together, whatever is the outcome, cause for sure it is helpful for each of us to just know and feel that we`re doing and bearing and floating here together, though in a unique and also personal a bit different way, thats the path i feel. And i for myself speaking, i just try to flow as good or as free and at the same time focused with all of you as possible. I see it as just a gift we are giving and doing with and for each other. Lets be playful and enjoy whatever we can enjoy, even if its just to know there are more n the same spirit-track than only little-me